Sharing information about accidents

7 posts / 0 new
Last post
Tom Schrecker
Offline
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Sharing information about accidents

Note from Chris Radford - editor

This post is a stream of discussion on the forum that relates to the Vallonets accident last week. We would welcome further suggestions and ideas on this discussion.

The post was started by Tom Schrecker and picked up by others including an article by Peter Hardy from the Daily telegraph.

Tom's Post starts here>>>>>

Another tragic avalanche on 11th. January 2011, this time in the Vallonet area. I know the instructor and one of those killed was a friend of mine. Apart from the location and that it was a slab avalanche I know little of the circumstances but it does raise in my mind the question of sharing information, which, in my opinion, has been a weakness in Val d'Isere.

I spend many years of my youth skiing in the Arlberg area - especially in Zurs. The area is smaller than Val/Tignes and also they had the control advantage of only one ski school. Every morning and every evening all the ski instructors (except those excused) met with reps of the ski patrol etc. to discuss weather and snow conditions and review danger areas on and off the piste. In the CMH lodges in Canada (where I skied for over 30 years) all the guides met every morning to review the runs to be skied that day. All the runs were colour coded and unless ALL the guides coded a run "green" it was not skied that day. "Top ski" here in Val used to have a meeting every morning of all the guides/instructors taking groups off-piste that day to review areas to be skied.

One of the negative aspects of the laissez-faire approach in France is a lack of co-ordination and control and this has its impact on safety. In Val there are more and more ski schools and also independent instructors. What if anything could be done to create a structure for sharing information related to off-piste skiing conditions for the common good?

Tom Schrecker. Vald'Isere. 13th. Jan. 2011

skicoach
Offline
Joined: 24 Dec 2010
Worse than that!

I was guiding off piste in Le Fornet just after the avalanche. I went into the ski patrol hut and had a longer conversation with an aggressively barking dog in there than with any security people.

The Signal lift is the only direct access to the Point du Grande Vallon and there was no information or warning posted - everything running as if totally normal - it just felt completely wrong.

If I hadn't learned 5 minutes before taking my group out - just by chance - then I would have had no idea what was going on. I personally never ski on the face that avalanched because there are often massive avalanches there right down to the river and it's totally exposed - but I may have skied on the shoulder leading back (NW) towards Le Fornet village - though on this day the weight of new (but strangely consolidated) snow would probably have prevented me from traversing around on the exposed faces to get to the shoulder.

There were massively changing temperatures and a storm was beginning at high altitude with poor visibility so further accidents could have become very complicated indeed. There is definitely a communication problem and it seems that the resort wants to actively play down the danger so as to avoid losing business.

SimonNelson
Offline
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
skicoach's comments

One of the jobs of a good guide is to find the best snow in any given conditions. Some of the best skiing I have had is on slopes that those who cannot judge the daily conditions avoid because of their reputation. I wish far more of Val D'Isere had a really bad reputation for avalanching because that would increase the chances of skiing good snow.

It's been said here and elsewhere that the guide involved has a good safety reputation. I have skied with him a lot. He is one of the best. But bad things happen to even the best. The last couple of weeks in Val has shown that. The very fact that 2 of the most experienced and carefull guides should have fatalities in such a short time should serve to remind us all that there is no such thing as risk free off piste skiing. And I would follow either of these guides any time and hope I do ski with them again.

We need facts about the particular avalanche so we can learn and we need a discussion on how we can minimise the risks when the unthinkable happens. How do we ensure airbags get deployed? Would avalung's have helped? Would better training in rescue make a difference? And I could go on.

My thoughts are with the guides, the victims and their families.

Dobe7777
Offline
Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Val d'Isère avalanche: is it safe to ski off piste?

Val d'Isère avalanche: is it safe to ski off piste?

Two avalanches since Christmas in the French resort of Val d’Isère have killed five people including two British skiers and raised the question: is it safe to ski off piste this winter?

Peter Hardy, the Telegraph's ski correspondent, assesses the risks.

12 Jan 2011

The off-piste instructor Didier Moreau, who together with his wife somehow survived Tuesday’s massive avalanche, is my friend.
Over the years I’ve skied with him many times and unquestionably I will do so again.

Didier is not only enormously experienced as an off-piste guide, but he is also one of France’s best Telemarkers and a national examiner of instructors.

He’s an expert in snow craft. He doesn’t take any unnecessary risks and in as far as I know he did not take one on Tuesday morning. He followed all the rules. However, just occasionally, the mountain breaks those rules.

Didier works as a senior guide and instructor for Top Ski, Val d'Isère’s iconic off-piste ski school that was established in 1976 by the former French racer Pat Zimmer.
Until this week Top Ski has never had a single avalanche death. A high proportion of the school’s loyal clients are British.

I stumbled across Top Ski back in 1980 and have skied with them each year ever since in every possible snow condition. They are the acknowledged experts at what they do.

Each morning they take small groups in search of the best powder in and around the resort. For safety reasons, the normal maximum size of each group is six. On this occasion it was seven because Didier’s wife, herself an expert, chose to join him.

Each November I help to organise a series of ski clinics with Pat Zimmeron on the glacier in neighbouring Tignes. They are designed for skiers who want to improve their technique both on- and off-piste. Didier works with us.

Last year Zimmer sold Top Ski to one of his clients and the mountain guide Jean-Marc Kaufmann now manages the school. But he continues to work in the business as technical director. Each morning Zimmer rises before 6am and assesses the snow conditions. At his 8am morning staff briefing he suggests where guides should take their clients – and where they should not.

The avalanche happened above the outlying hamlet of Le Fornet on a steep pitch that is known locally as “Oh My!” The risk was three out of a maximum of five on the international scale. But this is still normally acceptable for an experienced guide who knows, given the existing snow conditions, which slopes he can consider safe.

Ironically Zimmer was not present at the Tuesday briefing. He was in hospital in Grenoble recovering from head injuries sustained just after Christmas when he was hit by a holiday skier on piste.

Experienced skiers will tell you that the best way to survive an avalanche is not to get caught in one. The force of a slide of this magnitude – it was 2,500 feet long – is so enormous that at its maximum velocity the shock wave of air that precedes it destroys trees and anything else in its path even before the snow reaches them.

It rocketed to the valley floor, crossed the river, and climbed partly up the mountain on the other side before stopping.

All Didier’s group were equipped with radio transceivers that pinpoint your position under the snow. At least one of the party was wearing an ABS airbag backpack. If you pull a trigger this inflates a balloon-type designed keep you on the surface of the avalanche. First reports suggested that the wearer didn’t manage to pull the trigger.

The ski guide’s job is both technical and intuitive. By digging a hole he can work out to what extent the different layers of snow have adhered together.

Local knowledge collated over a century dictates which slopes are prone to avalanche. Current weather conditions and wind speed play their part along with the time of day – you don’t venture off-piste in the afternoon when the snow pack will be at its warmest.

But the guide’s sixth sense is also crucial. Pat Zimmer’s spent many thousands of hours instructing off-piste without serious incident and I’ve shared a few of those. Time and again I’ve seen him suddenly stop, sniff the wind like a fox scenting trouble, and turn away from a seemingly benign and inviting slope.

"Why?” I’ve asked.

“I don’t know,” he’s smiled. “It may be safe, but you and I are not going to find out. I have a feeling about it – I can’t explain.”

A series of small snowfalls and some extreme fluctuations in temperature have made the snowpack less stable than usual for January in the Alps.

Skiing off-piste well away from prepared runs (and the crowds upon them) is the essence of the sport. No feeling on earth can match the enjoyment of a descent in deep powder with friends on a perfect blue-sky morning. But it is essential to remember that – like the sea – conditions in the mountains can occasionally be both unpredictable and dangerous in the extreme.

By skiing with a local qualified guide you reduce that risk to a normally acceptable level. But risk remains.

My own experience of an accident off-piste, 16 years go while accompanied by a guide, taught me a serious lesson. A friend was killed and I was seriously injured in a fall in a steep couloir.

In the final analysis when you venture off-piste you must be aware that, even though you have a guide, it’s entirely your call.
To hand over all responsibility for your safety to someone else can have fatal consequences.
There’s no suggestion this time that the guide made a mistake. But all of us are fallible.

On that fatal day this week I was skiing in the Maurienne Valley – just a few miles away from the scene of the avalanche.
In the company of a guide I trust and with all the sensible safety precautions, I shall continue to ski off-piste this winter and all winters. For me, it’s a risk worth taking.

What to do if caught in an avalanche

If you’re wearing an ABS backpack, pull the trigger and release your airbag. Hopefully this will keep you on the surface.
Try to ski or tumble to the side out of the path of the slide as quickly as you can.

If possible get rid of your skis and poles (never wear wrist loops in a potential avalanche zone).
The sensation is of being in a high-speed washing machine. Swim furiously for the surface and try to get your head above the snow. Make the biggest effort as the avalanche slows.

Try to keep nose and mouth free from snow and use your arms to establish space around your face before it finally stops.

Avalanche debris has a similar mass to setting concrete and further movement becomes impossible.

Ski safety: how to avoid avalanches

If you are completely buried but wearing a radio transceiver your chance of survival is 34 per cent. After 15 minutes this starts to fall dramatically.
If you are not fully buried, survival chances are over 90 per cent.

Dobe7777
Offline
Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Comments to Peter Hardy, Telegraph's ski correspondent,Articile

andymeribel
01/18/2011

I'm lucky enough to live and run my own business in Meribel and while I agree that often the most worrying thing is other people and not the mountain I think the implication that it is snowboarders and people who wear helmets who are the problem.

As a helmet wearing snowboarder I take pride in the fact that I am considerate when on the slopes, on or off piste. The tired cliché that it is snowboarders who are arrogant and that wearing a helmet gives the wearer a sense of invincibility is just not accurate in the majority of cases. I wear a helmet as much to protect me from other piste users (as the article suggests) as from myself.
As for dealing with dangerous people on the piste I would love to see more piste patrols taking issue with people who are not in control of themselves or skiing or boarding recklessly.

steamer
01/13/2011

1 person The trouble is far more are going off-piste in the wrong place than ever before, also guides climbing for the money as is often the case with the Matterhorn.

jys

01/12/2011

1 person Without danger there would be no thrill in skiing, no adrenaline rush, no sense of achievement. Unfortunately, the dangers sometimes win.

In the past, the greatest dangers were nature and oneself. Now it's other people. The crowding brought by better lifts, the speed made possible by well-groomed pistes, the aggression that came to the slopes at the same time as snowboarding and the unawareness of what is what is going on around and feeling of invulnerability among helmet-heads all make other people the most frightening thing on the slopes.

antony_rigby

01/12/2011

2 peopleThe mountain broke the rules! How did it know?

milkie

01/12/2011

To many foreign tourists little understand the dangers of the Alps and the risks of avalanche.
Avalanche barriers and warnings should never be ignored and those without experience who go off piste and ignore all warnings are an irresponsible danger to others
as they may trigger an avalanche onto a piste or onto people below them. there are hundreds of accidents in the Alps every year but it is only the larger ones or those concerning Brits which are reported in the British press. those wishing to go off piste should either go with a guide or make sure they are aware of all the risks and take heed of the current conditions.
Alcohol also plays an important role in decision making to go off piste and on conduct both on and off piste which can also be lethal to others using the pistes.

Blackadder2

01/12/2011

1 person Off piste is "what is says on the tin".

Have a look at this Norwegian skier , who has made his late 30s despite himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

steamer

01/12/2011

1 person Off piste will eventually be non insurable, that's the way it's going and the more incidents then it will eventually will be throttled. This isn't the first time this season I've been out with rescue groups with dogs and stakes til the midnight hours.
In future, the way things are going, those who take such off-piste risks will have to show authentication of insurance cover.
Keeping 50+ people with dogs out searching high up to midnight and the early hours costs alot of dosh with Heli tech support and firebrigade crews on standby..... with body bags.

I'm saying as piste dienst, not in the Valais but in the central Alps, enough is enough of the recklessness.

nickinfrance

01/12/2011

2 peopleThe 50+ people are local guides, ski instructors and other local people who love the mountains, and depend on the mountain economy. And many of whom ski off piste themselves.

nate001

01/12/2011

2 peopleIs it safe to cross the road?

If you have to ask the question then probably not

richardhale

01/12/2011

The number of deaths per year in the French Alps has varied between 60 and 70 for a number of years.

Most die climbing in summer'

If the risk is 20 or 30 divided by millions of off-piste descents, then I feel it is completely acceptable and comparable to most sports..

daveycooper

01/12/2011

1 person First of all, condolences to the families. Living here in the French Alps, we hear these sad stories all too often.

There is never no avalanche risk, however the risks can be minimised. It is a good article here. Something that what not mentioned in the however is that you must anticipate the risks. When an avalanche occurs there is no time to work out what you are going to do. If you are lucky enough to have a sac ABS, make sure that you are ready to use it. Also keep planty of space between each skier. Especially when descending suspect slopes with angles between 25 and 35 degrees.

As for the comment about staying on the piste, it isn't the same sport and cannot be compared to Ski Touring and proper off piste activities. As an aside, I feel much safer skiing off piste than dealing with crowded slopes full of pi**ed up tourists, careering about in body armour and Darth Vader style helmets.

01/12/2011 PMR

1 person yep!... re the on piste dangers, it's becoming a bigger and bigger problem... I've been skiing for 40 years without a helmet but I'm getting close to feeling the need to get one. It used to be boarders but this year I notice it more with skiers... way too much speed with little ability to stop quickly.

01/12/2011

1 person It is NEVER safe to ski off-piste, this is part of the adrenalin rush, knowing same !
Any honest ski guide will confirm - not even experts are 100% sure where the next avalanche will start !

rozbif

01/12/2011

3 peopleOh piffle: there are plenty of places you can ski off-piste OK - it's just the powder-hounds have already been to the easier places and spoilt them. The problem is that whilst snow has been dumping on Britain, it wasn't in the Alps, because it had expended itself before reaching there. At Christmas at valley level it was actually thawing, so probably any more snow on top won't be so reliable just yet. Sh!t happens: just as it can when, despite driving an incredibly safe car, some other idiot causes a pile-up on the motorway . . .

Henry
Offline
Joined: 13 Sep 2010
Problems with Peter Hardy article published January 12th

I am concerned that this article creates an impression that the recent accidents are just down to bad luck.

In brief, all off-piste professional and experienced off-piste skiers know that above a certain slope angle (above approximately 25°-28°) there is always a risk of triggering an avalanche especially when there is new snow on the slope. 90% of all victims trigger the avalanche that takes them down, when this happens it is not just bad luck. It comes down to the decision by the group to go on to that slope.

The problem that I have with implying that bad luck played a role in this accident or any of the other accidents in Val d’Isère this season is that it sends a false message out to the general skiing public – that it could happen to them even if they are being ultra safe.

I am referring specifically, for example, to the statement in the article, "He followed all the rules. However, just occasionally, the mountain breaks those rules."

This is misleading. The mountain never breaks it's own rules - it only sets the rules that we need to understand in order to manage risk or avoid the risk. For example, the mountains in Europe will never release a dry slab avalanche on a slope below 25°.

For example you can completely avoid any risk whatsoever by not skiing on or close to slopes above 25° or you can manage risk once you are on steeper slopes by only exposing one person at a time to any given danger.

In this case, the group was in an area that was just described to me by an independently employed French mountain guide as, "particulièrement sauvage" and obviously steep enough to avalanche (because it did).

We experienced off-piste skiers all know that avalanches happen in certain places at certain times for certain reasons – they don’t just happen by chance and we can’t put any of these avalanches in Val d'Isère just down to bad luck.

Please do comment below if you have any questions or observations on this

Henry

PS There are further technical flaws in the article that for me are a little less important than the communication issues I state above, but still important:

“A series of small snowfalls and some extreme fluctuations in temperature have made the snowpack less stable than usual for January in the Alps”

A series of small snow falls doesn’t make the snowpack unstable. Instability in the snowpack was created first by the very cold temperatures that we experienced at several points from the end of the November to the end of December – cold temperatures and a thin snowpack created a very weak layer, that still very much exists. That weak layer combined with new snow and the wind loading slopes with extra new snow (like the slope in questions) created the instability that we are still experiencing now. The slightly warm temperatures for this time of year on the day of the accident did not contributed to any increase in instability at the time of the accident.

For my in-depth review of this year's accidents in Val d'Isère and some lessons learned see my blog post, "Tragic Accidents in Val d'Isère This Season - January 11 & two others"

http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/tragic-accidents-val-disère-season-january-11-two-others

gwynethP's picture
gwynethP
Offline
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Emergency Alert System

avalanche is something we really can't control so I guess being prepared on anything is still the best way to survive in natural disasters. Good thing there are lots of information now in the internet giving us survival tips in cases like this. Recently I read in an article that for the first time ever, the Countrywide Emergency Alert System will be completely tested on Nov. 9. This test will cover all radio, television, satellite radio and broadcast satellite providers; location-aware alert systems that focus on wireless programs are set to come online in 2012. I read this here: National Emergency Alert System test planned for Nov. 9

Login or register to post comments